Following link needs some discussions:
www.indianexpress.com/story/20932._.html
ON THE RECORD
E. Sreedharan Managing Director, Delhi Metro Rail CorporationWe have to change the system. The problem in this country is that we dont trust anyone
Posted online: Monday, January 15, 2007 at 0000 hrs
The Metro system in Delhi has won praise the world over, and the man who is seeing it through, Delhi Metro Rail Corporation Managing Director E. Sreedharan, has won accolades for his enthusiasm and efficiency. He speaks to The Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta on NDTV 24x7s Walk the Talk about how he created a new work culture, how he deals with roadblocks, and how he keeps his energy levels high at 75
E. Sreedharan
Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk. Im Shekhar Gupta at the big depot of Delhi Metro Corporation and my guest is who else but its iconic chief, E. Sreedharan. This is like the belly of Delhi Metro isnt it?
The Delhi Metro depot is a showpiece and one of the most modern depots in the east of the world today. We are very proud of this and we invite our visitors to see our depot, as the main activity is at night.
What surprises many is the image of the Metro... unlike the Indian railways system your units are not milling with people, noise and muck.
We have been very careful about it right from the beginning. We wanted to keep very low staff strength and we also want good house-keeping in the work areas. So our stations should be clean and tidy. Any work place will be clean and we are very particular about it.
Do you outsource your services?
Very little. Its mainly the cleaning services and the security. Otherwise we do everything by ourselves.
You run your business without clerks and peons.
Thats right. We dont have any clerks in the organisation and there are very peons. Peons are only there for me and for fellow directors not for anyone else.
So everyone else has to get his own glass of water
Now that has brought about a very good work culture and we have been able to keep down the staff strength.
How do you do this, as you have come out of the womb of the railways, where the only abundant resource is manpower?
That gave me lessons. We should not duplicate the railways culture and over-staffing. That gave me the direction. So when I had a chance to form our organisation and formulate our policies, we had decided to go for a lean organisation. This is very important in a Metro organisation where the staff cost is almost one-third of normal business organisations.
Even on Government of India salaries?
Yes it is one-third. The main costs are staff is one-third, energy is one-third and the rest is also one-third. That is the normal Metro rollover. So that is why we were very keen to keep the staff strength very low.
Mr Sreedharan, we had our last conversation three years ago, when your first lines were coming up. Now your Phase I is complete and you are moving to Phase II, Phase III and so on. What are lessons you have learnt in that phase that you are applying in these two? Do we expect these two also to be ahead of the schedule like the first one?
Phase I, we were largely depended on foreign expertise and experience. Now we have learnt quite a bit of it ourselves. So Phase II, we are mainly executing with our own resources. Only for safety and timely completion we are keeping foreign experts. So that means the country has come a long way in self-sufficiency in Metro technology. Phase II is a different type of a challenge. Phase I was only 65 km and we had 10 years for completion but finished it in seven years and three months, but in Phase II we have to cover 120 km and the time available is only three and a half years. This has to be completed before the Commonwealth Games scheduled for December 2010. We want to complete this by June or July so the system settles down by them. I dont think no country has covered such a vast area in a short time.
Visitors from London marvel at our Metro and say we have been trying to build one more line and it has been going on forever. So send Mr Sreedharan to us. But you are sure youll be able to finish it in this period.
Yes, definitely.
One always hears discordant notes of some group of ministers and environmentalists objecting. Somebody comes up with an idea of bus system or monorail. Looks like there is some fog and Im not saying because this is the fog season in Delhi.
This always happens in a country like ours, where everyone can express their opinion freely. But each has its own place. The Metro, bus and monorail has its own role. They can be complementary to each other. But there are certain places the monorail is not suited for.
Such as what?
Like in urban transport. Monorail is more suitable in entertainment places and tourist centres.
Airports?
Also in airports. Even there it can be a bit difficult, but over there people can pay very high fare. So its OK in airports. It is the best system in a city that has been planned fresh.
Another criticism is that the Metro is exaggerated and the fare is expensive, ferries too few people, Delhi doesnt have a single business district unlike New York or London. So maybe Metro is just a big ego trip.
It is true Metro is very expensive; there is no doubt about it. But the question is what is the other alternative?
Buses?
Buses cannot move this amount of people. If you want buses instead of Delhi Metro then it will take nine lanes of buses. That is not possible. You must see the social benefits coming out of Metro. With all the investments in the Metro lines it will comeback to the society in four years time.
How does that happen?
That is the economic rate of return. If you give the value to the number accidents reduced. Now so many people get killed in Delhi. The pollution is reduced, the time of travel is saved. If all this is given a value, then Metro is an attractive proposal.
Also, wherever the Metro goes real estates prices go up?
That is also another thing.
So the people benefit and the government gets more duties.
So this creates wealth for the people.
You have seen this happen wherever the Metro goes in Delhi?
Certainly
I know you fought a little battle with the railways... on the type of gauge you wanted and safety. It was joke that the Metro had to get safety certificate from Indian Railways
It was not merely a bureaucratic tussle, politicians were also behind this. I think the MSD Commissioner was being compelled to do this. I dont think he wanted to do all this. So legally we are on very safe grounds.
What do you think is the political vested interest is in this?
Rivals. Our shops are rivals to shops in that area... to the local politics.
At a time when Delhi is so short of commercial space, legal commercial space, we should welcome this.
We should develop the areas around Metros really well. There should be projects for this. Have a property development and give the area an entirely new look. This is what we have been trying.
Last time we talked, you said there are 14 cities in India with a population of more than three million and which need Metros. Some cities have accepted your idea like Bangalore and Mumbai. Do you think your dream of Metros dotting all major cities in India is coming true?
Yes, it has starting taking off, I would say. But not at the pace I want. Now already six-seven cities have opted for Metro system. They are various stages of formulation and implementation. That is, cities with more than 5 million population. Three million population cities are also interested, like Pune, Kochi. They will come in the second round. Things take time to take off but we are not moving the way we should have. We must have moved much faster.
Why are they not moving so fast enough?
I would say (it is) the way our government works. Things get delayed automatically. Like the Bangalore Metro. Everything, was cleared but it took the Government of India nearly two years to clear it and give approval to the State Government for starting the Metro. It is basically bureaucratic delays.
Does this frustrate you?
Yes. This could have been completed in two-three months time. Any other country would have done it.
Look how slowly our highway programme is moving. We are happy that we are getting roads but its going too slow.
We have to change the system. We have to start trusting people. The main problem in this country is that we dont trust anyone. We also dont hire the right person for the right job. If that is done, then this can move fast.
Elaborate that part, we dont trust anyone.
That is because the system is like that. We have inherited a system from the Britishers and they didnt trust the local people. So there are so many layers of trust and counter-checks and balances in the system If you start doing it in that fashion then it will take a lot of time.
So the system works on the presumption that everyone is a cheat unless you make sure he is not a cheat. Yet people cheat. So how would you simplify the system?
There should be an entirely a change in work culture in the government and various departments. This can easily be brought in. Delhi Metro has demonstrated that it is possible. We are a government organisation and we follow government rules and procedures. There is no interference here and people are ready to take decisions. That is not the case in other departments. Nobody wants to take decisions. They want number of papers to cover up their decisions. This is a mindset.
You were forced to get a broad gauge and what you wanted was a standard Metro gauge.
Yes the standard gauge would have been convenient and it would have been cheaper in making it and also for operating it.
I believe you have won that battle in the second round. The new lines are now in standard gauge.
Yes, the government has agreed that the State Government can decide the gauge at technological-economic conditions. You go for these conditions, standard gauge will be everywhere.
So whats happening in Bangalore and Mumbai?
They are all using standard gauge. But Phase I of Delhi Metro and all existing lines of Phase I will be on large gauge.
So which phases in Delhi will use standard gauge and large gauge?
We have proposed the new high-speed line for the airport in standard gauge. That is unavoidable for us because we dont have the technology for broad gauge. If we want it then it will take another three to five years to get it and we dont have the time.
Are you absolutely sure about the economic feasibility of the high-speed airport line?
Yes, we are. We have also suggested that the Central Secretariat-Badarpur line should also be in standard gauge. This is so because if we use broad gauge there will be a lot more demolitions and we want to avoid that. Even for Indralok-Mundka line we want to propose standard gauge. Now all the new lines which are not connected to Phase I project have standard gauge. We should also go for this. Many countries have two-three different systems.
Another thing that has changed for you since we talked last time is that you or DMRC must be facing competition as many new Metro companies both private and public have come up. So you must be facing competition for suppliers, consultants and employees.
The competition is basically for the skilled or talented staff.
Are you losing some?
Yes, we are losing a lot. Poaching is happening in a big way. We are losing a lot of people to Dubai Metro. Then we are losing people to Mumbai Metro, as it is being done by a private party and they are ready to pay at any scale to take our people. Even with attractive packages, many have stayed. They are getting job satisfaction here.
Are you likely to start bidding for Metros in other cities?
We will not bid for Metros in other areas. But will certainly bid for consultancy.
When you take up consultancy, will you find a way to compensate your staff better?
Well do that. We always do that.
What are the changes you see in your parent organisation?
Railways, there is a change, but it is more of commercial change like profits and things like that. But that is not enough. Change is required in the technology. There should be an upgradation of technology. That has been my grievance for a long time.
Since the winds of change are now blowing. All said and done, Lalu has created competition for Concor. Nobody ever thought of that.
But thats also in the commercial side only.
Yes, but do you see a change in technology, expansion and these new high-speed freight corridors?
Expansion is taking place but new technology or frontline technology is not coming in the country in a big way.
Your friends and peers in the railways, do you ever talk to them about these issues? Have you met the Railway Minister lately?
I have met the Railway Minister but I havent talked to him about upgradation. The earlier minister, Mr Nitish Kumar, I had spoken to him. I took him in a Metro and told him, We are doing so many new things here, why cant this be transplanted into the railways. I have also written two-three letters but I found that I wasnt making inroads. Somehow, I felt railways had a prejudice towards Metro. But it is less now.
Do they feel it is spoiled?
No, they feel it is an organisation, rail-based but working in a different way
And pampered? At least they may think that.
No we are not pampered in any way.
Your energy level is high even when youre pushing 75.
Yes, Im 75. Energy level is high because of my systematic life. I dont divert my energy anywhere else except for my work and my passionate team.
Does anything make you angry?
Yes, I do get angry at work. I do lose my temper, but only for a short time. I dont keep it in my mind.
What things make you angry?
Obviously, if something has to done in the right way and theres mistake.
Does the government way make you angry?
No, I get frustrated.
Another mile of a line comes up, and all your frustrations go away.
Yes, that is only temporarily.
That is why it is really good to speak to you. Thank you, Mr Sreedharan. Maybe three years from now, well be meeting Gurgaon getting off your train.
editor@expressindia.com
---------
viewers may note that the above article is very critical of IR's work culture but still DMRC is not without Peons .
www.indianexpress.com/story/20932._.html
ON THE RECORD
E. Sreedharan Managing Director, Delhi Metro Rail CorporationWe have to change the system. The problem in this country is that we dont trust anyone
Posted online: Monday, January 15, 2007 at 0000 hrs
The Metro system in Delhi has won praise the world over, and the man who is seeing it through, Delhi Metro Rail Corporation Managing Director E. Sreedharan, has won accolades for his enthusiasm and efficiency. He speaks to The Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta on NDTV 24x7s Walk the Talk about how he created a new work culture, how he deals with roadblocks, and how he keeps his energy levels high at 75
E. Sreedharan
Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk. Im Shekhar Gupta at the big depot of Delhi Metro Corporation and my guest is who else but its iconic chief, E. Sreedharan. This is like the belly of Delhi Metro isnt it?
The Delhi Metro depot is a showpiece and one of the most modern depots in the east of the world today. We are very proud of this and we invite our visitors to see our depot, as the main activity is at night.
What surprises many is the image of the Metro... unlike the Indian railways system your units are not milling with people, noise and muck.
We have been very careful about it right from the beginning. We wanted to keep very low staff strength and we also want good house-keeping in the work areas. So our stations should be clean and tidy. Any work place will be clean and we are very particular about it.
Do you outsource your services?
Very little. Its mainly the cleaning services and the security. Otherwise we do everything by ourselves.
You run your business without clerks and peons.
Thats right. We dont have any clerks in the organisation and there are very peons. Peons are only there for me and for fellow directors not for anyone else.
So everyone else has to get his own glass of water
Now that has brought about a very good work culture and we have been able to keep down the staff strength.
How do you do this, as you have come out of the womb of the railways, where the only abundant resource is manpower?
That gave me lessons. We should not duplicate the railways culture and over-staffing. That gave me the direction. So when I had a chance to form our organisation and formulate our policies, we had decided to go for a lean organisation. This is very important in a Metro organisation where the staff cost is almost one-third of normal business organisations.
Even on Government of India salaries?
Yes it is one-third. The main costs are staff is one-third, energy is one-third and the rest is also one-third. That is the normal Metro rollover. So that is why we were very keen to keep the staff strength very low.
Mr Sreedharan, we had our last conversation three years ago, when your first lines were coming up. Now your Phase I is complete and you are moving to Phase II, Phase III and so on. What are lessons you have learnt in that phase that you are applying in these two? Do we expect these two also to be ahead of the schedule like the first one?
Phase I, we were largely depended on foreign expertise and experience. Now we have learnt quite a bit of it ourselves. So Phase II, we are mainly executing with our own resources. Only for safety and timely completion we are keeping foreign experts. So that means the country has come a long way in self-sufficiency in Metro technology. Phase II is a different type of a challenge. Phase I was only 65 km and we had 10 years for completion but finished it in seven years and three months, but in Phase II we have to cover 120 km and the time available is only three and a half years. This has to be completed before the Commonwealth Games scheduled for December 2010. We want to complete this by June or July so the system settles down by them. I dont think no country has covered such a vast area in a short time.
Visitors from London marvel at our Metro and say we have been trying to build one more line and it has been going on forever. So send Mr Sreedharan to us. But you are sure youll be able to finish it in this period.
Yes, definitely.
One always hears discordant notes of some group of ministers and environmentalists objecting. Somebody comes up with an idea of bus system or monorail. Looks like there is some fog and Im not saying because this is the fog season in Delhi.
This always happens in a country like ours, where everyone can express their opinion freely. But each has its own place. The Metro, bus and monorail has its own role. They can be complementary to each other. But there are certain places the monorail is not suited for.
Such as what?
Like in urban transport. Monorail is more suitable in entertainment places and tourist centres.
Airports?
Also in airports. Even there it can be a bit difficult, but over there people can pay very high fare. So its OK in airports. It is the best system in a city that has been planned fresh.
Another criticism is that the Metro is exaggerated and the fare is expensive, ferries too few people, Delhi doesnt have a single business district unlike New York or London. So maybe Metro is just a big ego trip.
It is true Metro is very expensive; there is no doubt about it. But the question is what is the other alternative?
Buses?
Buses cannot move this amount of people. If you want buses instead of Delhi Metro then it will take nine lanes of buses. That is not possible. You must see the social benefits coming out of Metro. With all the investments in the Metro lines it will comeback to the society in four years time.
How does that happen?
That is the economic rate of return. If you give the value to the number accidents reduced. Now so many people get killed in Delhi. The pollution is reduced, the time of travel is saved. If all this is given a value, then Metro is an attractive proposal.
Also, wherever the Metro goes real estates prices go up?
That is also another thing.
So the people benefit and the government gets more duties.
So this creates wealth for the people.
You have seen this happen wherever the Metro goes in Delhi?
Certainly
I know you fought a little battle with the railways... on the type of gauge you wanted and safety. It was joke that the Metro had to get safety certificate from Indian Railways
It was not merely a bureaucratic tussle, politicians were also behind this. I think the MSD Commissioner was being compelled to do this. I dont think he wanted to do all this. So legally we are on very safe grounds.
What do you think is the political vested interest is in this?
Rivals. Our shops are rivals to shops in that area... to the local politics.
At a time when Delhi is so short of commercial space, legal commercial space, we should welcome this.
We should develop the areas around Metros really well. There should be projects for this. Have a property development and give the area an entirely new look. This is what we have been trying.
Last time we talked, you said there are 14 cities in India with a population of more than three million and which need Metros. Some cities have accepted your idea like Bangalore and Mumbai. Do you think your dream of Metros dotting all major cities in India is coming true?
Yes, it has starting taking off, I would say. But not at the pace I want. Now already six-seven cities have opted for Metro system. They are various stages of formulation and implementation. That is, cities with more than 5 million population. Three million population cities are also interested, like Pune, Kochi. They will come in the second round. Things take time to take off but we are not moving the way we should have. We must have moved much faster.
Why are they not moving so fast enough?
I would say (it is) the way our government works. Things get delayed automatically. Like the Bangalore Metro. Everything, was cleared but it took the Government of India nearly two years to clear it and give approval to the State Government for starting the Metro. It is basically bureaucratic delays.
Does this frustrate you?
Yes. This could have been completed in two-three months time. Any other country would have done it.
Look how slowly our highway programme is moving. We are happy that we are getting roads but its going too slow.
We have to change the system. We have to start trusting people. The main problem in this country is that we dont trust anyone. We also dont hire the right person for the right job. If that is done, then this can move fast.
Elaborate that part, we dont trust anyone.
That is because the system is like that. We have inherited a system from the Britishers and they didnt trust the local people. So there are so many layers of trust and counter-checks and balances in the system If you start doing it in that fashion then it will take a lot of time.
So the system works on the presumption that everyone is a cheat unless you make sure he is not a cheat. Yet people cheat. So how would you simplify the system?
There should be an entirely a change in work culture in the government and various departments. This can easily be brought in. Delhi Metro has demonstrated that it is possible. We are a government organisation and we follow government rules and procedures. There is no interference here and people are ready to take decisions. That is not the case in other departments. Nobody wants to take decisions. They want number of papers to cover up their decisions. This is a mindset.
You were forced to get a broad gauge and what you wanted was a standard Metro gauge.
Yes the standard gauge would have been convenient and it would have been cheaper in making it and also for operating it.
I believe you have won that battle in the second round. The new lines are now in standard gauge.
Yes, the government has agreed that the State Government can decide the gauge at technological-economic conditions. You go for these conditions, standard gauge will be everywhere.
So whats happening in Bangalore and Mumbai?
They are all using standard gauge. But Phase I of Delhi Metro and all existing lines of Phase I will be on large gauge.
So which phases in Delhi will use standard gauge and large gauge?
We have proposed the new high-speed line for the airport in standard gauge. That is unavoidable for us because we dont have the technology for broad gauge. If we want it then it will take another three to five years to get it and we dont have the time.
Are you absolutely sure about the economic feasibility of the high-speed airport line?
Yes, we are. We have also suggested that the Central Secretariat-Badarpur line should also be in standard gauge. This is so because if we use broad gauge there will be a lot more demolitions and we want to avoid that. Even for Indralok-Mundka line we want to propose standard gauge. Now all the new lines which are not connected to Phase I project have standard gauge. We should also go for this. Many countries have two-three different systems.
Another thing that has changed for you since we talked last time is that you or DMRC must be facing competition as many new Metro companies both private and public have come up. So you must be facing competition for suppliers, consultants and employees.
The competition is basically for the skilled or talented staff.
Are you losing some?
Yes, we are losing a lot. Poaching is happening in a big way. We are losing a lot of people to Dubai Metro. Then we are losing people to Mumbai Metro, as it is being done by a private party and they are ready to pay at any scale to take our people. Even with attractive packages, many have stayed. They are getting job satisfaction here.
Are you likely to start bidding for Metros in other cities?
We will not bid for Metros in other areas. But will certainly bid for consultancy.
When you take up consultancy, will you find a way to compensate your staff better?
Well do that. We always do that.
What are the changes you see in your parent organisation?
Railways, there is a change, but it is more of commercial change like profits and things like that. But that is not enough. Change is required in the technology. There should be an upgradation of technology. That has been my grievance for a long time.
Since the winds of change are now blowing. All said and done, Lalu has created competition for Concor. Nobody ever thought of that.
But thats also in the commercial side only.
Yes, but do you see a change in technology, expansion and these new high-speed freight corridors?
Expansion is taking place but new technology or frontline technology is not coming in the country in a big way.
Your friends and peers in the railways, do you ever talk to them about these issues? Have you met the Railway Minister lately?
I have met the Railway Minister but I havent talked to him about upgradation. The earlier minister, Mr Nitish Kumar, I had spoken to him. I took him in a Metro and told him, We are doing so many new things here, why cant this be transplanted into the railways. I have also written two-three letters but I found that I wasnt making inroads. Somehow, I felt railways had a prejudice towards Metro. But it is less now.
Do they feel it is spoiled?
No, they feel it is an organisation, rail-based but working in a different way
And pampered? At least they may think that.
No we are not pampered in any way.
Your energy level is high even when youre pushing 75.
Yes, Im 75. Energy level is high because of my systematic life. I dont divert my energy anywhere else except for my work and my passionate team.
Does anything make you angry?
Yes, I do get angry at work. I do lose my temper, but only for a short time. I dont keep it in my mind.
What things make you angry?
Obviously, if something has to done in the right way and theres mistake.
Does the government way make you angry?
No, I get frustrated.
Another mile of a line comes up, and all your frustrations go away.
Yes, that is only temporarily.
That is why it is really good to speak to you. Thank you, Mr Sreedharan. Maybe three years from now, well be meeting Gurgaon getting off your train.
editor@expressindia.com
---------
viewers may note that the above article is very critical of IR's work culture but still DMRC is not without Peons .
