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pankajp	Kajaria tiles	Lead	[-]
Posts: 347 (11/25/06 06:45:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None One division's civil engg department on IR has floated an open tender for "fixing of Kajaria tiles on floor of different offices in DRM's office". Estimated cost of work is approximately Rupees fifteen lakhs. Is this permissible?Suppose a tenderer particaipates in the tender and quotes with alternate tiles of brand "Mona Lisa". Will this offer be straightway rejected as it is not meeting the requirements of floated tender?
scmitra	Kanjaria Tiles	#1	[-]
Posts: 590 (11/25/06 08:49:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A person who quotes a different brand would be rejected as per the tender conditions unless some terms like Kajaria tiles or similar' has been used in the tender document. However it would be a good idea to book the person who has made the specifications and floated the tender unless kajaria is the only type of tiles available in the market the way Intel processors are supposed to be in a league of their own (notwithstanding AMD etc.) scmitra.
freefall	Kajaria Tiles	#2	[-]
Posts: 185 (11/25/06 16:35:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Looks like the work of an amateur. Someone in his over-enthusiasm for quality work has inserted a condition beyond his authority. Someone has inadvertantly bypassed the PAC. However silly our PAC rules may be, we have to play the game according to rules -- unless rules themselves are changed. It is only an ametur who commits this type of mistake. Seasoned engineers know how to get a particular brand without naming it. Ask the Kajaria company for the complete list of specifications for the tile in mind. The company representative will be more than happy to oblige. He will also be happy to point out the unique distinctive characteristics that only his brand will be able to meet. Attach the list of your target comapny's tiles specifications in work conditions instead of name. What if there are no unique distinctive specifications for Kajaria brand? Well, in that case what is the justification for insisting on it anyways? If it is a superior quality it must be captured somewhere in some specifications, mustn't it?
pankajp	Re: Kajaria Tiles	#3	[-]
Posts: 347 (11/25/06 19:42:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mitra Sir & freefall ji The tender being discussed is not a stores tender, for which PAC is applicable. The tender floated is a works tender floated by engg department. Normally works tender do not have specifications specially attached, they have only tender schedule on which rate is to be filled in by the tenderer.I may be wrong but PAC is not used in works tenders. If mention of Kajaria tiles is wrong, how can Indian Railway's S&T brothers insist on Siemens make relays in their works tender? Other manufacturer's also manufacture and supply similar relays, which can be used instead of siemens.
scmitra	Kanjaria	#4	[-]
Posts: 590 (11/25/06 21:53:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Pankajji, thats what I wrote. Unless it is something intel processors.Siemens might have been the OEMs or leaders in that arena to an extent that all else came nowehere even fourth or fifth. But I think they say 'Siemens or similar or superior'. scmitra
pankajp	Re: Kajaria tiles and AMD	#5	[-]
Posts: 347 (11/25/06 22:48:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	How exclusion of AMD processors over Intel can be justified while purchasing PCs? Same function of PCs is done by AMD processors also, at the same time saving IR's money.This is in line with canons of financial properiety also! Why not ban the mentioning of brand name in works/stores tenders? Technical specifications are meant to specify the functional requirements and not brand this or that or similar or superior etc.
freefall	Kajaria tiles	#6	[-]
Posts: 185 (11/26/06 08:31:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Normally works tender do not have specifications specially attached, they have only tender schedule on which rate is to be filled in by the tenderer." Very strange. Works tenders almost invariably have specifications attached in the special conditions where NS items are decsribed.
irse	Re: Kajaria tiles	#7	[-]
Posts: 124 (01/29/07 23:20:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This is very intresting subject & discussed quite actively for two day .The conclusion appears to be quite clear that brand names should not have been suggested .specification should be mentioned & who so ever supply as per that speification at minimum cost should get the order . Without commenting on conclusion ,just a few points we see diff type of flooring in glazed tiles ,diff type of furniture in one type of wood ,diff type of curtains in one type of fabric ,mattress,bathroom fittings etc at diff place & wonder why such thing are not in railways area.It is really these item which make your office,rest house etc either plesant or lousy but it is very difficult to exactly specify these items in simple english whenevr we puechase any thing for our house ,we never ask shop keeper to show cheapest material ,we look for variety & buy what looks plesant ,durable but not necessarily cheapest however this option is not available to us in govt purchase/contract ,we have to buy invariably cheapest Therefore it is necessary to provide minimum bench mark for acceptance of items. It is really not possible to exactly specify good looking items & if at all specified ,difficult to cross check on supply(It is just like laying specification for prospective Bride or Bridegroom).in process any thing comes in name of similar item Therefore if after a proper market survey ,user has identified that he need kajaria tiles in bathroom & flloring ,Kurl on mattress,bombay dying bed sheets etc & if it is open tender ,there should not be much difficulty although comptetion is restricted among dealers of particular brand. Simmilar word is extremly dangerous & should never be put .If you put intel or similar & accept simillar item ,then problem may start if intel challenge that it is not exactly similar & poor person who accepted some thing based on functional requirement will go on defending himself Therefore my suggestion is either donot put brand name& be specific in your specification or if you canot be specific ,then put brand name but for God sake never put a simillar word
anil kumar patel	Re: Kajaria tiles	#8	[-]
Posts: 61 (01/30/07 20:34:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sample approval clause is more suitable to work with in these cases. We can ask for a bare sample or a mock up. This process can take into account features like colour, texture, tile size, durability, laying complexity, mix n match, suitability with existing colour scheme, etc.
pankajp	Re: Kajaria tiles	#9	[-]
Posts: 347 (01/30/07 21:10:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Patel Sir & IRSE sir First modify the Canons of Financial properiety and then attempt to innovate in tenders.
freefall	Re: Kajaria tiles	#10	[-]
Posts: 185 (01/31/07 09:27:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Pankaj: I refuse to accept that canons of financial properiety are so impractical as to disallow getting a simple thing such as a branded material. There is enough flexibility available within these canons to achieve a quality standard that a man of ordinary prudence would expect for his money (such as use of a branded tile instead of generic ones). If we maintain that use of a branded tile would need changes in canons of financial properiety, we are only implying that the canons are hopelessly archaic. I do not think such is the case. There are enough number of cases where branded material has been enforced through contracts well within the canons. All it needs is a greater diligence on part of both, executive and finance.
BP	canons	#11	[-]
Posts: 69 (01/31/07 14:53:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	there is nothing wrong with the canons. the issue at hand is of 'like for like' comparison. you cannot compare kajaria with monalisa just like you cannot compare 'kajaria budget' with 'kajaria vitrified'. these are two different products for two different segments of market and ordinary prudence can be applied for such segments. 'or similar' is something that goes against the concept of ordinary prudence. even a kissan of fursatganj never confuses the price of a broiler for a desi. what we are discussing is plain laziness (if not other motives). a good engineer will take pains to research a bit and add johnson marbonite, cera y and somany x also.
pankajp	Re: canons	#12	[-]
Posts: 347 (01/31/07 20:50:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Respected BP sir If this is the case, what is the justification for PAC in supply tenders while no such term (PAC) exists for works tenders?
BP	rules - they're changin'	#13	[-]
Posts: 69 (02/01/07 09:28:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	pankaj your question shud be vice-versa. since the rules of the game have changed, laws should also change. previously works tenders did not have so much of supply element. now there is a large proportion of supply element. s&t and elect folks have increased the proportion to upto 80%. so, works tender looks more like an e.p.c. hence need to have some form of p.a.c in epc contracts. (& who says that works tenders have only got tender schedule and no specs). unfortunately, the tendering system as well as the organisation design in IR is not so evolved in respect of epc. therefore all the topics that u have raised, like radio trunking set thru' civil engg contract, departmentalism, ownership of work etc all fall under the same broad category. proprietary is the key word in PAC which means something that is made/ produced/mktd by only one person and there are no substitutes. this can be true only in complete monopoly situation which is extremely rare. however, we still get PAC from the appropriate authority b'cos we want something in particular. however, for pac cases the issue is not of like for like comparison. but, if you put a clause 'kajaria or similar', then u are not sure what u want. every country when dealing with public money will have some form of PAC. it is only approaching the right level to get a proprietary article.
anil kumar patel	in desperation	#14	[-]
Posts: 61 (02/01/07 18:55:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The problem of putting brand names in place of technical description is caused by our failure to create a unified specification for items of works. Out of desperation the field Engineers start putting brand names because they see Kajaria for quality tiles. If I am correct ceramic tiles are there in the market for last 15-20 years ( in India) but still many of the Railway's schedule of rates do not have them as a regular item. If we leave specs. to 500 engineers (counting all DEN's Sr. DEN's & Dy CE's) you will get some of the schedules mentioning brand names itself. Building a specification needs lots of data, some from manufacturers, some from codes a lot from your own imagination. Majority of Engineers do not have access to such data due to variety of reasons, most primary of which is the very fact that we do not bother for brands so brand people do not bother to keep us on their mailing list for new products and innovations etc. There should be a system of giving accredition to new products/manufacturers and issuing a recommended schedule for adoption at field level by a single authority. RDSO does this for equipment manufacturers, but no body does it for day to day material requirements for a poor IOW, who invariably ends up at the top of the hate list of every one. Despite a systemic problem in schedules I don't think one brand name only in a schedule is a rampant phenomenon. This must be a one off case. I am quite sure that Engineers are knowledgeable enough to know that they need to mention an 'equivalent' word to get through with the prevalent 'cannons'. Most of them are also aware of their limits that they have no powers to change those rusted cannons which are misfiring and backfiring only.
irse	Re: in desperation	#15	[-]
Posts: 124 (02/02/07 08:01:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	just for information of all without any comment on matter of discussion A sub committe of Work Standard Committe is preparing uniform specification & SCHEDULE for indian railways .convener of committe is NR & work is entrusted to RITES. this will contain all modren material in use in today environment
pankajp	What is e.p.c.?	#16	[-]
Posts: 347 (02/02/07 19:39:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	BP sir What is e.p.c.?
anil kumar patel	Re: What is e.p.c.?	#17	[-]
Posts: 61 (02/03/07 01:00:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Click on following for knowing all about EPC en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eng...nstruction
pankajp	Kajari Tiles again	#18	[-]
Posts: 347 (05/31/07 22:25:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Please see following : rdso.gov.in/tenders/index.html Providing & fixing of Kajaria tiles for flooring in Lubricant lab of M&C Dte.. Tender notice number WKS/879/TEN ---------------- What if the company which is manufacturing "Kajaria tiles" at present stops manufacturing Kajaria tiles due to any reason? Will this works tender require to be cancelled?
freefall	Kajaria Tiles again	#19	[-]
Posts: 185 (06/04/07 13:12:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I actually went through the tender documents to see what specifications have been given for Kajaria tiles. Guess what? In a work of tiling, I can see specifications for reinforcement bars, glazed windows, wood work, welded steel work, even earthquake design for foundations. The only thing missing in the entire document is specifications for tiles. ...deva! deva!.. If I were a railway contractor, I would fire all my technical staff. Instead I will employ a bunch of lawyers and focus on making huge money entirely through litigation.
pankajp	kajaria again	#20	[-]
Posts: 347 (11/04/07 02:33:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	www.iricen.gov.in/modules...opic&t=966 any comments?

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