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Electrification - Another Scam?

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Unregistered(d)	Electrification - Another Scam?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 0 (12/08/03 07:34:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Has the Railway finance department ever analyzed why electrification goes on unabated on Indian Railways, whereas, it is being roled back in developed countries. There is an organisation caled CORE, which in order to survive, must add more and more electrification projects to its portfolio, because it lives off the project cost. If a simple finance principle, which we apply to all other Railway Projects is applied to electrification projects, things will be far more practical. This is as follows: Let each Railway propose its own electrification in Works Programmes, duly vetted by divisional finance, then HQ finance and then let it be examined by the Rly Board along with other Works Programmes.
S Shivesh	Electrification	#1	[-]
Posts: 483 (12/08/03 08:21:19) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dear RPS, Great to find a new contibutor. we have recently done the project appraisal for electrification of 100km section costing Rs.38 cr. approx. at zonal HQ. While the initial IRR calculated by the dept was 16%, our estimates are in the range of 7%-9% for different scenarios. Normally the undercasting of expenses and overcasting the savings & since it affects Diesel traction, the cases require the comments of CME. False projections on savings in Lie-overs on isolated systems, losses on account of change of traction and wrong assumptions that there will be complete switch-over to electric traction are the bane. BUt then all these are supported by traffic dept. You may like to know that in case of dispute, COM plays an important role in tilting the balance. Basically, we have not been able to stop. There is no point in electifying every nook & cranny. A policy decision is required regarding whether change of traction is required or not. I think, there is more loss due to change of traction. Electric loco/diesel loco both have to wait. Loco links formed by mixing and matching un-necessarily project a higher requirement of loco of a particular horsepower. So, overall the system is a loser. Better system would have been to maintain the traction integrity from end-to-end. Bye. Shivesh PS:- Dear friend, scam is too harsh a word. Are you sure it does'nt include COFMOW? Pl. find a link on COFMOW & M&P.
Unregistered(d)	Electrification	#2	[-]
Posts: 0 (12/08/03 09:35:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	COFMOW buys only those machines which have been proposed by Zonal Rlys after due examination by Workshop finance officers and then by HQ finance officers. COFMOW does not go about telling each Rly how many machines it needs and then makeing out a case at COFMOW itself and justifying it financially in complete isolation from the end user or the associate finance of the end user. The point I am trying to make is that the concept of associate finance has been completely abandoned in conceiving and then justifying electrification projects. You may see view my arguments as biased sinice I am a mechanical officer. But, will this system of a self serving organisation as the CORE stand scrutiny in a good financial system. A-la Northcote Parkinson, CORE finds work for itself. But it also sends huge monies down the drain.
scmitra	Parkinsons	#3	[-]
Posts: 590 (12/08/03 10:00:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dear RPS As you have quoted C.N.Parkinsons, let me tell you that as per him, every organisation will find its own level of development/fossilisation(I am paraphrasing him) also.Let us find hope in the Darwinian concept of the survival of the fittest(or the survival of the least unfit!) S.C.Mitra DFM/BRC PS:RPS, where are you posted now?
ranjanesh	core issue of CORE	#4	[-]
Posts: 652 (12/08/03 10:36:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I would like to compliment Srivastava on the extreme faith reposed in the ability of associate finance to stop unremunerative activities. If this faith is given the teeth it deserves, maybe the fossilisation will be more appropriate and development will gracefully replace it. Ranjanesh
scmitra	Wilde-ish!	#5	[-]
Posts: 590 (12/08/03 11:01:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Respected Ranjanesh Sir I just freak out on your sarcasm.I think it wouldnot be too much of a repetition if I were to tell you that Oscar Wilde would have been proud of this sarcasm tipped understated arrow:"I would like to compliment Srivastava on the extreme faith reposed in the ability of associate finance to stop unremunerative activities." Associate Finances of the Indian Railways,Unite.You have nothing to loose but your sleep and shamelessness! S.C.Mitra
rpsrivatsa	Darwin	#6	[-]
Posts: 9 (12/08/03 20:12:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Darwin, alas, talked of a wild world, where survival of the fittest, in the long run, strengthens a race or a species. Not here. I am not Srivastava, but Srivats. Regards, RPS
ananth	Electrification!	#7	[-]
Posts: 911 (12/09/03 01:13:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dear RPS, welcome to the Board and I think you have raised a serious issue. We had gone to CORE during our probation and I had even made a presentation in RSC which was critical of the justification for RE projects. We had a small discussion with a Dy.CEE at CORE/ALD where he even told us that associate finance should also look at the fact that electrification also helps in reducing the pollution levels and the savings on environmental costs should be accounted for! It is because of such wild opinions that CORE is still able to survive. Ananth DFM/NGP/SECR
vivekprakash	Electric blues!!!	#8	[-]
Posts: 133 (12/09/03 09:53:16) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Respected all: Electrification has also other side effects. When one looks the electrificatoin justifications, fuel is shown as savings and cost of power is often ignored. The power bought from SEBs is Rs 3.20 per unit from Rajasthan SEB to Rs. 5.12 from MP. The cost is high. A lot of losses are built into power cost when the power is actually sold to railways. Secondly, the social cost benefit analysis is a tricky business. How does on arrive at the cost of pollution reduction? The power bought is Naptha based, then the cost of power also goes up. If it is coal based, are SEBs paying railways back what is due? A lot of notional savings goes into ROR as sanjeev sir has shown: detentions, lie overs, wagon movements over a section, cost of electric loco. Savings are shown as of diesel locos, which is not really genuine. After the proposal for electrification, SCADA would be proposed, whose cost is not initially taken in electrification RORs. Further, the Raj Committee of 1978 has said that for electrification breakeven level is about 30 GTKM per route kilometer at diesel oil priced at Rs.1292 per kilolitre and electricity at 24 paise per kwh. This requirement is a wish list.It is the cartel formation by OPEC in 1970s started the desire for electrification. The national energy policy of 1980 had proposed 1000 rkm per year. But in the given circumstances, the projects can have only financial justifications, rest all can be mere dressing on the salad and as the case is, the dressings usually have more calories than the salad itself!! Regards Vivek Prakash Tripathi EB 1998
rpsrivatsa	ROR of Electrification Projects	#9	[-]
Posts: 9 (12/09/03 20:09:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dear Ananth and Vivek Prakash, I am delighted on your ability to see through some fallacious arguments put forward by the electrification lobby. There does exist a lobby of bureaucrats and contractors, believe it or not! Don't all scams start this way? Next time you evaluate the returns on an electrification project, please also look at the following cost inputs, which are generally kept hidden smartly to show an high ROR: 1. Has the entire debit for the work been raised by CORE on the user Railway and accepted by the latter? 2. What is the staff cost after electrification vis.a.vis pre-electrification operations. Do not forget to include the numerous officers, supervisors and staff involved in TRD, TRO and allied maintenance works. Compare it with a similar traffic section with diesel operation, or the costs of the same section prior to electrification. 3. Ask whether the same increase in throughput was possible by simply improving the signalling system or the tracks, activities which normally go along with electrification. 4. What will be the renewal cost of the OHE and its allied equipment, during its codal life and afterwards? 5. Are there any authentic reports which prove that pollution at the power houses is preferable to dispersed pollution of diesel locomotives? Nature can easliy handle low concentrations of dispersed pollution, but concentrated pollution overload at powerhouses is a concern the world over. 6. Finally, if electrification were so good as it is professed to be, why aren't richer countries doing it? 7. If petroleum is going to get depleted so soon, as told by some, then why are so many car manufacturers setting up newer and newer plants and increasing their capacities. At any cost, depletion, if any, will soon manifest itself in the form of scarcities and sky high prices. This is not happening. The price rise for petroleum products is largely because of cartelisation and not due to an impending drying-up of wells. Regards, RPS
ranjanesh	Electrifying presence	#10	[-]
Posts: 652 (12/09/03 21:11:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes Srivastava oops ..Srivatsa now you are talking. Well the issues raised by you are not only extremely pertinent but equally well known. You may then ask( sorry for being presumptious and correct me if you would have done otherwise) "What are the Accounts Wallas who raise so many objections and are treated as hurdles even on petty issues doing on this grotesque ( adjective only thematic and for grammar sake) issue??? Well why dont you find out from your own department which would not have sat quiet on this threat of extinction? You will find the answers. Its heartening to note though that so young in the career one can see both fire and maturity in you. Ranjanesh
vivekprakash	Re: ROR of Electrification Projects	#11	[-]
Posts: 133 (12/09/03 21:31:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dear RPS: Thanks for the assertion in our abilities. I have not come across any report about pollution from Powerhouses in terms of SPM, NO2, SO2 and Lead -the standard pollutants; noise is too elite to even be considered. In any case the issue of not largely of pollution, but of economics and though it seems politically incorrect but pollution is not really the issue unless one can radically state that consequences are in extreme. In most river valley projects, the displacement is an issue rather than pollution. Similar for Naphtha based powerhouses, the pollution is lesser. Same for gas generated power station. It is the coal-allied powerhouses, which are largely polluting because of fly ash and largely as SPM (suspended particulate matter) For electrified section, the staff requirement is 0.53 per ekm. The issue is not exactly of staff but of financial prudence and sincerity. If you increase the staff of electrical department, staff of mechanical department has to go offsetting the staff requirements of electrical department. Richer countries are not doing a lot of things. US do not have wind power generation, apart from some pockets, though heavy capabilities exist on its western coasts. But all the development of electric locos has happened in richer countries mostly European. Also, what kind of transportation is preferable in Western countries? Most European nations are not even size of one railway (pre partition days of 9 rlys.!!) For them electrification is not a priority. Secondly, seeing things in perspective, it is not a question of is/or traction but a convenient mix of two. Strategically, in case of war, diesel traction is used. But OPEC wont allow this always. The prices are not skyrocketing because new wells are being discovered in regions. Further, no consortium will increase the prices in one go. Compare the price of fuel in 1995 per barrel and compare it now. The increase has been steady. One does not know, if diesel would really be preferred traction 20 years down the line. May be nuclear technologies, solar energy or may be hydrogen. Who knows? It would be worthwhile to have opinions and views of an electrical officer on this! Regards, Vivek Prakash Tripathi EB 1998
scmitra	Some Questions.	#12	[-]
Posts: 590 (12/10/03 03:19:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The discussion seems to be taking interesting turns.Please allow me to quote from one Electrical Vs Mechanical topic written ,I think by one MM.However the authorship is apocryphal,the substance is not.The queries,myths and realities may be pput right by some of my electrical colleagues if they choose to answer. Myths & Reality 1:Electric traction is more modern as compared to diesel traction. 2:Electrification is an indicator of development as all developed countries are adopting it. 3:Electric locos are faster. 4:Electric traction is more energy efficient as compared to diesel traction. 5:Electric traction is pollution free and more environment friendly as compared to diesel traction. 6:On account of higher horsepower, electric locomotives have higher load hauling capability. 7:The productivity of electric locomotives is much higher as compared to diesel locomotives. 8:Since electric locomotives have a higher HP, overall requirement of locos comes down. 9:With electrification, throughput of a section increases. 10.Electric traction gives a higher reliability of operations. 11:Electric traction improves safety in operations. 12:Electric traction is only marginally capital intensive, as compared to diesel. 13:Electric traction is more economical in running cost as compared to diesel traction. 14:Electric traction is less manpower intensive as compared to diesel traction. 15:Electric locos can run for one month without any attention, while diesel locos are to be brought to the shed once a week. 16:The line haul cost for electric traction is lesser than that of diesel traction. 17:All electrification projects are justified on the basis of a 14% rate of return. 18:Electric traction saves precious foreign exchange. 19:Electric locos can generate energy and feed the nations energy requirements through regenerative braking. 20:Fast suburban trains can be run only with electrification. 21:Electrification is essential to run train sets like the Main line EMUs (MEMUs). 22:Electrification is justified for strategic reasons. 23 iesel oil is heavily subsidized, whereas electricity supplied to railways is overpriced. 24:While diesel prices will go up in the future, electricity tariffs will come down. 25:Electric traction requires less maintenance infrastructure as compared to diesel traction. 26:What will happen to CORE (Central Organization for Railway Electrification) if electrification projects are rolled back? Can we have answers in Yes or No? Srivsatava ...oooops.. Srivatsa, am I on your side?DONT COUNT ON ME.I AM AN ACCOUNTS OFFICER-AS FICKLE AS ENGLISH WEATHER! S.C.Mitra DFM/BRC
ananth	Electrification!	#13	[-]
Posts: 911 (12/10/03 09:53:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think this is turning out to be a wonderful discussion which is taking rather interesting turns. Srivatsa has asked some very pertinent questions which are worth pondering upon. I believe electric traction is popular in European countries and Japan because of the predominance of high-volume passenger traffic. They want to be transported at high speeds and the volume justifies the high cost of running the trains. But I am of the opinion that if we have to transport freight, diesel locos give us the maximum flexibility. I remember being told during probation that in South Africa, some rakes are a few km. long with 4-5 diesel locos hauling the wagons. Not just electrification but even the pace of electrification smells of a scam. Significant sections of the golden quadrilateral on the Howrah-Chennai (from Kharagpur to Palasa) and on Mumbai-Chennai (from Pune to Guntakal) have not been electrified even though the proposals were cleared long back. A perfect case of the electrical dept. trying to preserve their posts by delaying the execution of projects. I am sure no electrical officer is reading. However, we should hear their side of the story. Some electrical officer, please respond! Ananth DFM/NGP/SECR
S Shivesh	English weather	#14	[-]
Posts: 483 (12/10/03 10:35:29) Local user Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	SCM, Great compilation. Let me make an attempt in the reverse order. 26 to 1. 26. No doubts. CORE becomes irrelevant. 25. Bunkum. Both locos will need POH, maintenance. Added expense on OHE maintenance which is much expensive as against fuelling points. 24. While Dsl price is a known fact, I doubt about electric tariff. This will also go up. Vivek has pointed that in 1975 Dsl price was Rs. 1275 per kl & avg. electric tariff of 24p per KW. While dsl has gone up by 15 times electric price is more by 20 times. 23. Subsidy on Dsl ( almost 50% duties,cess etc. my friend)... I am reminded of Sprite! 22. Agreed. 21. Outdated logic. Don't we have DMUs. 20. Agreed. But IR is not just Mumbai suburban or Delhi Metro. 19. Regenerative braking(RB) ... Maybe after 20 years after establishing Centre ... CRB.. and spending another 500cr. At present only possible in WCAM-1) 18. At $90 billion, is it really important. 17.14%. Yes because Finance has forgotten Productivity tests. ( phew!, Viv! what have you got to say?) 16. Line haul Cost. #@^. It's greek to all costing experts. 15. Saurabh, is it humour or self deprecation? Anyway, since the MM in question is retd. It is "generated gap". Yawn! 14. Refer 25. 13. Breakeven point is the answer. Only at 40GMT p.a 12. The marginal value is Rs.50 lakhs per Km i.e., Rs.55,000 cr. for 112lakh Route km*. 11. b'cos dsl traction under OHE is dangerous! 10. A wee bit perhaps. 9. At avg rake speed of less than 18kmph. does 24kmph (dsl) or 25kmph(electric) really matters. Weakest link is the wagon combination. 8. 100 horses or 10,000, only 58-BOXNs can be hauled. & speed would'nt increase to 200kmph from 18. 7. Dilbertspeak. 6. refer 8 above. 5. Electric loco is pollution free only b'cos the ash flies at Badarpur or Kahalgaon or Talcher. 4. Jargons. .. tons of it. 3. Sachins ferrari moves at 10kmph at peak hr. in Dadar. By the who said that there's a word "speed" in HSD. 2. From "laltain" to "petroMAX" to "bijli"... 1. Modern! I feel like Snoopy. Electrocuted. Dieselly yours,
rpsrivatsa	Technology?	#15	[-]
Posts: 9 (12/10/03 20:10:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The same MM had quoted an Arab Shaikh on the future of oil. When asked what would happen when oils runs out, the Shaikh said that technological breakthroughs have always shown the way to mankind. The stone age did not come to an end because mankind ran out of stones. He simply discovered metal and abandoned stone. It is quite evident that we are not able to take a sound financial decision due to internecine lobbying of electrical and mechanical departments (mechanical seems to be losing all this while). Maybe, a technological breakthrough will save the Railways from a financial ruin on this account. Regards, RPS
Unregistered(d)	hat in the ring !	#16	[-]
Posts: 0 (12/11/03 01:35:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	One of the major reason for distortion is electricity pricing for traction. After the new electricity act, and railways entering into direct purchase from central electric utilities, cost per unit is likely to go down substantially. Also, if the history for large scale electrification is seen, it has two salient points ; a. lack of petroleum in the country, and b. possibly the largest proven reserves of coal in the world. Also, please permit me a dig at my friends in the Mechanical department ; A Diesel loco has very little "mechanical" into it. It, is mostly electrical ! To put the diesel v/s electric into perspective, mechanical should hand over the diesel loco to elctrical. Since now electrical will have what they want (and probably deserve), i.e. the motive power, a prudent decision regarding electric/diesel is more likely ! Parimal Kasliwal I.R.A.S. 1991
Unregistered(d)	hat out of the ring	#17	[-]
Posts: 0 (12/11/03 02:06:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dear Parimal, This forum is unlike any other on IR. So live and interactive. I simply adore it and hope I am not kicked out of here, since I am an outsider (non-IRAS). However, you too seem to have fallen into the trap of electrical lobbying. There is not only no shortage of petroleum, India is now an exporter of Diesel. An item is called to be in short supply, when you have the money but you can't buy it. This used to be case, I am told by elders, 15 years ago, when you couldn't buy a car or a scooter, even if you had the paying capacity. Today, in most cities, villages and in the industry, they can't buy electricity even if they are ready to pay, and pay a premium, for it. The same cannot be said about diesel or any other petroleum product. No, Parimal, we are not short of diesel. We are short of electricity. Each electric loco sucks out another 3-5 megawatts out from the system, further deepening the crisis. Imagine what people burn in their DG sets or irrigation pumps when electricity is not available. Same diesel, that we are supposed to have saved! Also, these small DG sets and pumps are of poor design and lower efficiencies, thus they end up burning more diesel, than we save in the first place. Regarding coal, let me point out that most developed countries in Europe and now even India, are going in for gas or naptha based power plants. Coal has become a commodity of secondary choice. How very true when you say that diesel loco is largely electrical. Sure, it is. Just tell the electrical department that they should take over the diesel locos along with the IRSME officers and they will squirm. The electrification lobby has two aspects: 1. A bureaucrat-contractor nexus. 2. A desire for empire building. Tell them that in whatever sections or Railways, electrification has reached large proportions, they should absorb the IRSME cadre in the same proportions, instead of fresh recruitment of IRSEE officers and see their reaction. A surefire formula to turn the electrification theory on its head would be to merge the IRSEE and IRSME cadres. This way, the empire building motive will vanish and we will take much better decisions. The contractor-bureaucrat nexus can be handled in other ways. I see, somewhere else on this forum, a discussion is on for merging IRAS and IRTS and somewhere else on having an all-India accounting service. Regards, RPS
Unregistered(d)	Merger eh?	#18	[-]
Posts: 0 (12/13/03 03:08:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Stumbled upon this thread during a web-search. It is a corporate decision to electrify certain sections. Why this rethinking? High hopes, this merger business, for my mech friend
ranjanesh	Electrification	#19	[-]
Posts: 652 (12/14/03 00:49:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Its interesting to note that our Electrical Department friend " stumbled " on this link. Perhaps this is the reason why he has veiled his identity.The dilemma is "Should we now wait for the contest to take place between the agrieved parties or continue to chip in as a neutral agency ? I think the second option is better. Ranjanesh
scmitra	Shortage	#20	[-]
Posts: 590 (12/14/03 09:06:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"We are not short of diesel. We are short of electricity." In relative term, Srivatsa may be right but in absolute term we might be short on both.But the most damning shortage is the shortage of will to do what is right and the will to resist the pressure to do less than optimal things. It would have been better if the electrical officer had identified himself. S.C.Mitra

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